Tracked Skid Steer Concerns

[Tom of Markdale]

I am very intigued by the new line of all terrain loaders as CAT call theirs. It is nice to see the drive sprocket up and out of the dirt. But what scares the hell out of me, is the little contact that this sprocket has with the (ALL RUBBER) track. It looks like less then 90 degrees of the sprocket. With the impressive horsepower that these things come with, I can't begin to imagine, that all force available at the bucket edge is being transfered at this critical point. The bushings are replaceable on the sprocket, but it is the track, that I worry about.

Also, although these very mild profile tracks may let one negotiate soft terrain, I am very curious if one can develop any serious digging forces under such conditions.

Lastly, I wonder if any are available in the higher speeds as seen in skid steer machines.

I would be very interested to hear from users of such equipment,

[Lawngodfather]

Well, I have run Cat Challengers on ground an all wheel duelly 4x4 tractor couldn't even dream of driving on.

When the ASV came out I demoed one, one sweat machine, and it would go anywhere.......

My next skid loader will be a rubber track machine

This pic is from letstalksnow

I don't think my wheeled one with over the tire tracks would do this.

[NCSULandscaper]

Is the sprocket really hitting on rubber, or is there a metal chain track thats attached to the rubber tracks?

[Lawngodfather]

rubber/metal

There are some co's now that make over the tire rubber tracks, and Case has a neat set up for rubber tracks that go over the tire.

[Avery]

From what I have heard from people that run them you will have to replace the rubber tracks every 2000-3000 hrs. And that is not a cheap proposition. Other than that I have not heard anything bad about them. I would guess that 99% of all skid steers in my area run rubber tracks. With all the sand wheeled loaders are just about useless.

[Lawngodfather]

From what I have heard from people that run them you will have to replace the rubber tracks every 2000-3000 hrs.That cheap then.

I think you have been misled, it's more like 500-1000 hours.

Tires you are lucky to get 300 hours.

it takes about 3-4 sets of tires to equil the tracks.

BTW if you run them on mud or dirt all the time, they will last a long time, the more time you spend on hard surfaces or rocky, the less time they will last. Plus the rockier areas will tear them up fastest.

[Tom of Markdale]

Interesting replies. The 500 to 1000 hrs is a scary proposition. As far as I know, there is no steel at all in the Cat or Bobcat track. Those are nice pics, but attest more to the floatation then my concern about really doing some digging, like removing stone fence lines. The JD 270 I had on demo had a really nice track system using two wheels on each axle. but I learned that the drive chain gets removed, otherwise the chain geometry fights the track geometry. This bothers me, because all forces are doubled on one sprocket per side, instead of two.

[NCSULandscaper]

it should have the same if not more digging abilities than a wheeled unit. Its got the same tread amount just wider for floatation. Skid steer is not going to be a total digging machine anyhow, you will need a steel track dozer if you really want to dig.

[Avery]

That cheap then.

I think you have been misled, it's more like 500-1000 hours.

Tires you are lucky to get 300 hours.

it takes about 3-4 sets of tires to equil the tracks.

BTW if you run them on mud or dirt all the time, they will last a long time, the more time you spend on hard surfaces or rocky, the less time they will last. Plus the rockier areas will tear them up fastest.
They swear they are getting over 2000 hours on them. No mud or rocks here. Only sand. And they do not run on paved/concrete surfaces.

[MikeGamb]

it should have the same if not more digging abilities than a wheeled unit. Its got the same tread amount just wider for floatation. Skid steer is not going to be a total digging machine anyhow, you will need a steel track dozer if you really want to dig.
mine digs just fine with tires.just the other day i dug down 4 ft..hit some giant rocks too

yeah a dozer would be better suited for bigger stuff like foundations and land grading

[Lawngodfather]

it should have the same if not more digging abilities than a wheeled unit. Its got the same tread amount just wider for floatation. Skid steer is not going to be a total digging machine anyhow, you will need a steel track dozer if you really want to dig.A tracked machine spreads the ground bering load over a larger area, conciquentlly better digging ability from more traction.

It has atleast 20 times the tread area on the ground, that is a huge difference, no where close to the same.

Walk on ice with rubber cleats on give almost no traction, walk on ice with good gripping walking shoes gives much more traction.

More surface area = more traction.

Also note digging ability also depends on break out force.

[NCSULandscaper]

yea isnt that what i just said

[Lawngodfather]

You said "same" in the same sentance, those 2 machines are not in the same league.

[NCSULandscaper]

well next time i will be more detailed, same tread thickness but not width wise

[Lawngodfather]

Same what?

A track and a tire are not even in the same class much less close in size.

Which would have more traction Matt?

A car or a train?

[NCSULandscaper]

Re-read what i typed again a few times, never did i say they have the same traction. The tread on the tires and the tracks are the same THICKNESS(depth), but thats all.

The comparison to a car vs a train is totally irrelevant. The traction comes from a train by weight and weight only. Car has rubber tires and is a feather compared to a train. Per wheel, a car tire would have more traction because it has more area touching the ground according to your words.

[Lawngodfather]

it should have the same if not more digging abilities than a wheeled unit. Its got the same tread amount just wider for floatation. Skid steer is not going to be a total digging machine anyhow, you will need a steel track dozer if you really want to dig.This whole sentance is inaccurate.

The tread is "Defferent" from wheeled units.

Most skid loader use a bar type tire, which they call industrial tread. Usually with an inch or more of a lug on them.

http://i4.ebayimg.com/02/i/01/bc/70/5e_1.JPG

The tread pattern on here is a whole lot different.

The more that protrudes from the tracks causes more flex in the track.

Which means less traction and track life.

http://www.bobcat.com/products/images/pro_CTL_T300_04.jpg

Digging ability is a combonationg of break our force and traction.

You will get more of both with a metel track high lift to even be able to compare machines.

The "dozer" is in yet a totally different class of machine. It does not "dig" It scrapes.

[NCSULandscaper]

Digging is simply having the right machine for the job. Skid steers were not designed to be a reliable digging machine, its designed to scoop, load and push. Dozers can dig and scrape. Excavators simply dig. If you want to dig, you wouldnt buy a skid steer.

I dont care what the tread pattern difference is, i want to know specifically about tread height. All the ones ive seen are close to the same height. If you want a track to have more traction, you will add more height to the tread instead of taking it off.

[Lawngodfather]

I can see how much experiance you have in these machines....

You add more height to the lugs on rubber tracks you better switch to steel.

A back hoe digs tooooooooooo

Skid steers were designed to take the place of man power such as the rest of the mavhines in the world.

With the right operator behind the controls, they can make the machine do almost any thing they want it to do.

[NCSULandscaper]

yea, just been around the stuff my entire life and used most heavy equipment thats out there. What was i thinking arguing to god.

And for the last thing i will write, even the most experienced equipment operator cant do anything more than what a machine was designed to do.

[Lawngodfather]

Well you might of been around them your entire life, but you keep digging a deeper whole into the opposite of what atracked skid steer is.

Never the less it helps gain more traction by spreading the machines surface area over a broader range to give the machine much more ability to move over softer terain. Has nothing to do with track width or lug height.

Digging ability is being able to shove the spade edge of a bucket into the dirty. The machine is reliable enough to generate billions of dollars in sales and put billions in contractors pockets.

My machine with bald tires digs on drier ground pretty well. Tracks give the machines the ability to work on softer ground. Dedicated tracks like the 2 machines pictured (one climbing salt pile)let tackel the softest ground or shal we say go where no machine could go before.

You wouldn't buy a tracked machine to work on hard surfaces all day long.
it should have the same if not more digging abilities than a wheeled unit. Its got the same tread amount just wider for floatation. Skid steer is not going to be a total digging machine anyhow, you will need a steel track dozer if you really want to dig. A tracked machine is no where the same machine, but this whole post sounds like a paraphrazed post.

[NCSULandscaper]

Oh well you have your expectations on them and i have mine, not a subject to get riled over.

But you still mis-understood what my original post was saying, but thats past and over with.

[Lawngodfather]

you will need a steel track dozer if you really want to dig.Dozers don't dig. they push/scrape.

Excavators dig deep straight down holes

Highlifts/loaders can dig, load trucks, grade, level, scrape, compact....etc..

Backhoes dig like an excavator, the front does what a highlift/loader does.

Skid loaders do what a highlift/loader does on a smaller scale. Tracks give them the ability to do it on softer surfaces.

[Lawngodfather]

The comparison to a car vs a train is totally irrelevant. The traction comes from a train by weight and weight only. Car has rubber tires and is a feather compared to a train. Per wheel, a car tire would have more traction because it has more area touching the ground according to your words.That would be the same for a track unit to a wheeled unit. That was the whole point

[NCSULandscaper]

lol, ok

[J.T.]

Cat fight

Well i dont know alot about skid steers but have rented them a few times and here is what I used

To use on asaphalt I used a 4 wheel unit with rubber tires

To use around a mulch pile I used a track system when it was real muddy it did great but when it was real dey it would tear the ground up real bad where I turned

Tried the Track system after i couldnt get No TRACTION with the wheeled unit in the mud turning around

Both of these were bob cats and I learned another thing that I had to learn the hard way

I knw how to operate one no problem but I didnt know the little detail about you had to have the seat belt locked for the stuipd thing to crank.............The lco i worked for out of college had that bypassed lol

After an hour I called the Rental place and they sent the guy over to check it out and I think he thought I was stupid due to this and he actully spent an hour watching me run it to make sure AFTER I got it cranked that I knew how to run it.

[Lawngodfather]

The traction release button, I hate that damn thing....

Every time you raise the lap bar, you gotta press that damn green buttion.

[J.T.]

I hate the seat belt Im a fat guy lol and it has a roll cage lol

[MikeGamb]

I can see how much experiance you have in these machines....

You add more height to the lugs on rubber tracks you better switch to steel.

A back hoe digs tooooooooooo

Skid steers were designed to take the place of man power such as the rest of the mavhines in the world.

With the right operator behind the controls, they can make the machine do almost any thing they want it to do.
I agree 100%

I have gone through 2 skid steers a TLB and my father has an older case dozer

A skid steer does all the same things as the Dozer and TLB just on a smaller scale

I've seen skid operators that have no clue on what they can do with the machine, but people like LGF and I know the ins and outs about them.

I guess there the highest selling machine on the market because people no longer need something that digs right?

[MikeGamb]

Dozers don't dig. they push/scrape.

Excavators dig deep straight down holes

Highlifts/loaders can dig, load trucks, grade, level, scrape, compact....etc..

Backhoes dig like an excavator, the front does what a highlift/loader does.

Skid loaders do what a highlift/loader does on a smaller scale. Tracks give them the ability to do it on softer surfaces.

AGREE !!

[Green Pastures]

So I'm looking at buying a tracked skid steer soon.

I've narrowed it down to the Bobcat T190, Cat 247B or the ASV 60.

I really like the Bobcat T190 over the ASV 60 but have not seen the Cat yet. I demo'd the ASV and the Bobcat on Wednesday.

I like the idea of the suspension on the tracks like the Cat and ASV has over the ridgid track on the Bobcat. But the owner serviceability on the Bobcat was WAY better than the ASV. Everything you would ever need to get to was within inches of the back door opening on the Bobcat. I think I'd be willing to give up operator comfort for the ease of service.........maybe not......

I need to demo the Cat.

What do you guys who rent/own them think.

P.S. I'll be getting a 3 in 1 bucket, tiller, harley rake and an auger bit attatchments for whichever I get.

Please help, this is a HUGE investment for my company, I need to make an informed decision......

[yardpro]

so you the one working ON it or IN it????
since you will be spending more time using it than working on it i would go suspension. A friend of mine has the asv rc 60. it is awesome. I like the joystick bucket controls. he has had his for a year and no problems. the nice thing about the tracks is you do NO dammage to turf etc. while driving over it.

[Green Pastures]

so you the one working ON it or IN it????[quote]

Both. I expect to be the one operating it and doing all the preventative maintenance as well.

[quote]since you will be spending more time using it than working on it i would go suspension. A friend of mine has the asv rc 60. it is awesome. I like the joystick bucket controls. he has had his for a year and no problems. the nice thing about the tracks is you do NO dammage to turf etc. while driving over it.


I hear ya. I was very impressed with the smoothness of the grade using the ASV with it's smooth rubber tracks as opposed to the Bobcat with it's more aggressive tracks.

[Lawngodfather]

You don't do damage to the turf with tires...

Turning in any of these machines will damage the turf.

The tracked machine apply less ground pressure due to being spread over a larger area.

Soft ground will rut with any machine, just how much it ruts is the difference.

[yardpro]

You don't do damage to the turf with tires...

Turning in any of these machines will damage the turf.

The tracked machine apply less ground pressure due to being spread over a larger area.

Soft ground will rut with any machine, just how much it ruts is the difference.

i will disagree there.
the asv 60 and the tracked dingo's leave NO depressions at all. the ASV 60 exerts less than 3 psi on the ground. that's about equivalent to a 5 year old's footprint.

whenever i have used a wheeled unit i end up with depressions 5 or 6 inches deep

[j.w. reid]

I now this is an old topic but had to add my 2 cents.

I have spent alot of seat time in ctl (compact track loaders) and SS (skid steers) there are two type of ss a rubber tired and one retorfitted with tracks.

The Bobcats and the new New Hollands that just came out are just skid steer chassis they add a track drive system to. Some of the models on the market only require a few bolts to drop the track carriage and install rubber tires. they work for softer areas and are a step above the rubber tires in most aspects aside from asphalt, which will eat tracks.

The line of compact track loaders on the markert now alot of people put in the sam class as the above mentioned units, however they are in a different class. Their complete undercarriage is the same or very similar to a larger unit say a Cat 953 for example. They end up putting more usable power on the ground hence higher breakout forces. I run a Tackauchi (sp) and Mustang stl alot. The larger ones say the Tackauchi 150 is a brute horse. I have done grade work on the same lot as a D3 and been able to do everything the D3 did. I do know that this was only grade work and that the D3 will outperform the 150 due to its weight and how it is applied. But the 150 held its own and I know that even with a large ss ,say a New Holland 190 that I wouldnt have been able to do the work I did.

If you are looking for a all around machine and do not plan on driving on asphalt alot then I would look at one of the Mustangs or Tackauchi models on the market. If you dont do alot of big work then one of the small models will do everytihng you need and then some but if you do any sort of large projects then the bigger models will be the ticket.

I will say that the little 130 Tackauchi will outlift alot of ss. I lift full pallets of sod off of a trailer and can carry them through ditch lines that I would be hesitant to run a empty ss through.

[Dusty]

I LIKE THE TRACK MACHINES BETTER FROM WHAT I HAVE RUN
i can do things i could not do in a tired machine
i like both types but i like the tracks better

[Lawngodfather]

Geihl makes the Mustangs

Tackauchi was one of the first, and it never had tires on it.

I think now all the MFG offer a tracked machine, Case it looks like the just put tracks on a wheel machine.

Bobcat has redone their tracked machines, they are work horses.

[j.w. reid]

Tackauchi is the same as Mustangs. Only difference in them is the color of paint, the decals and the price lol Big difference there. My brother is the Parts Manager for Theros Equipment here in town. They are the New Holland / Geil / Kobelco / Mustang / etc etc dealer.

From talking with him I do know that the above is true since he use to get me Mustangs 250 hours of service kits for far less than the Tackauchi dealer wanted for my old boss's 130 and 150. I also know that on the mini excavator line that Kobleco and New holland do some sharing of building responsibilities, I dont remember whayt though. I do that is common through out all the industry, he also led me to think that New Holland has bought out Case I am thinking that it is their ag. line and not their Construction line though . I will ifn dout for sure when I talk to him in a few minutes.

I was unaware that Bobcat had redone their undercarraige. I am glad to hear that as I have always liked their producst and its nice to seem them upgrade to a better design.

I do know that the new New Holland skid steers that have a tracks are the same undercarraige as the regular units with tires. I was hoping they would do it all the right way the first time but I guess they are going to do it the long way LOl

[Lawngodfather]

http://www.takeuchi-us.com/products/images/tl140.jpghttp://www.mustangmfg.com/images/products/track_loader.jpg

That's funny, Mustang clames to be the second oldest MFG of skid steers yet they do not make one.

Takeuchi, makes their tracked ones, and Gehl makes their wheeled ones...

Case owns the entire contrlling intrest stock in the New Holland company, in a few years New Holland won't exsist.

[Matty Mallard]

My friend/former employee is a sales man for cat and he lets us demo equipment and go and ride on earth movers and so on whenever we want. I used a RC30 track steer one weekend at his camp putting in a crush and run driveway with him it was nice fast, the track have carbon kevlar in them too, there 2k a piece to replace.

and dollar for dollar whats the best value, New Holland? I know cats the most expensive, and Bobcat is up there our 453 was only 3g's used but its tiny.